SGU: they could have a really good show here, honest

[aelfgyfu_mead]

We're still watching SGU. I half like it, and the other half is driving me crazy. Okay, I'm not really sure about the proportions. I will provide convenient cuts to things I like and dislike separately so that you can read only the ones you want. (Please don't read the ones you don't want and then tell me what a fool I am for watching, because I already know that!)


The Bad and the Crazy
First and foremost, as friendshipper and some of her friends have been saying (in slightly different words), how can this possibly be the SGC we have known and loved for so many years now?
A. Jack O'Neill and the SGC have no rules whatsoever about what you can do in someone else's body? You can have sex (Young, in Telford's body), get completely drunk (Chloe), and pick fights (Young again)?
I must confess, I was angry for Emily first about Telford leaping back into his own body so that she was having sex with a strange man for a moment and didn't even know it, and then realized with great guilt the next day that she was not even close to the most victimized party here. Telford didn't give permission for his body to be used in this way. That's called rape, folks; just because he can't remember it doesn't make it not rape. And he can remember a bit of it.
I do think the writers are trying to put Telford and Emily together to make it more acceptable. I can't believe Telford told Emily that her husband is still sleeping with TJ (which appears to be false) for any reason other than to get Emily to sleep with Telford when he was actually in his own body. Perhaps this is "consent after the fact." (I have seen references to such a notion, in academia in fact, and I must say, I can't get my head around "consent after the fact"; if you can, please let me know.)
I've also been complaining about the possibility of food allergies and was gratified to find that mentioned at friendshipper's post as well—it struck me even more strongly after Camile complained about food and wine not tasting right.
I'm really, really hoping that Camile went no farther than a kiss with Sharon. It's not as if SGU would flinch from showing us more, is it?
I think nialla42 was the first to say it, but others have repeated it: changing actors lets them get away with all kinds of really unsavory scenes. If we saw Telford the whole time Young was in his body, wouldn't we be more upset about Young and Emily making love? (Wouldn't I have realized sooner that it was rape? I like to think I'm not insensitive about such things!) Wouldn't we have been more disgusted at Chloe drinking too much? At Young getting into fights which won't leave bruises on his body but some other poor military man?
I will add that I am grateful so far they're switching men into men and women into women; is that dependent on where they are relative to each other and the stones, as Brilliant Husband suggests, and they're carefully ensuring at both ends they have the right number of people of the right sex? Or is it simple writers' carelessness?
B. Going along with #1: Jack would leave Telford in charge of anything or anyone? In what universe? Someone tells him TJ had to sedate Telford in Young's body to keep him from hurting or killing Young, and that dude gets assigned to isolated duty so fast his head would still be on Destiny. Telford has shown poor judgment repeatedly, and if Jack doesn't know it, he's not doing his job. Certainly when Telford called to have the stone removed so that Young would snap back into his own body (because surely that's what happened when Young went for Telford and found himself on the Destiny again, right?), all kinds of alarms should have gone off. Telford should face an inquiry at this point. (I think neither Telford nor Young is really fit to command, but we have no better choice on Destiny, so we're stuck with Young there. Telford should be replaced.)

Last night, when I finally saw last Friday's episode, I kept thinking that SGU is the "Stargate 90210" segment from "200," except now it's being done straight instead of as parody. I wanted to be sympathetic to Matt Scott, but now, I don't want to see him anymore. You know, I even like character development. I'm one of those people who thinks that that Next Gen episode where Picard spends the entire time with his brother after having been a Locutus (it should have been "Locutor" [/digression]) for the previous two or three episodes was a great episode. I have nothing against character development as such. I just think SGU is doin it rong.

Most of "Life's" character development was devoted to characters we've never met before, and some I hope never to meet again. Matt's ex-girlfriend didn't have the decency to let him know she had his son? Assuming he was in no way harmful or abusive to her, I think she ought to have let him know. Don't want to see her again. He got her pregnant, thought she had an abortion, and never dropped by to see her again? Don't want to see him again!

We got a fair amount of time with Camile, but I didn't feel like it was very interesting, except for the hit-us-over-the-head moment, "I forgot the rowboat!" OMG, people! She forgot to draw the mode of escape from the desert island! Big psych moment here, and TJ isn't even around to witness it! Carl Binder, please look up "subtlety" and memorize the definition. With practice, you may be able to achieve some. I like Camile—so why did I feel like her scenes dragged? (But not as badly as Scott's and Young's!)

I already knew Young was a hothead, so I learned nothing new about him except that he was so concerned that Telford had slept with his wife under false pretences that he hardly said a word to his wife and simply went straight for Telford. I am not impressed.

I have been complaining about Bad Science (to BH primarily, not here), but last night was virtually No Science. SF is just an excuse for body switching in this episode. Do. Not. Want. Even Rush's data were fabricated.

I want very badly a scene where Camile and Young join forces and go to Rush to deliver this short speech: "If we have to have Eli double-check all your work, you're more trouble than you're worth. The next time you fake data or disaster effects, you're being thrown in our makeshift brig for a week. Do it again, and we'll double the time. Get anyone hurt or killed, and we'll see if you ever get so much as a fake shower on this ship again!"

Could someone please clarify?
All I could see was underwear in that last scene—was that Chloe sleeping with Greer? Brilliant Husband wasn't sure either, but we were both too disgusted with the whole thing to run the scene back and try to make sure. (Not that I'm not more disgusted with Matt, mind you.)
ETA: Several people have told me that that was Park with Greer—and that it wasn't Chloe with Scott at the start, either, but Park with Rivers (they needed a new character, because they thought they'd already developed the old enough).


The Good (for me, at least)
I still like Eli. He means well, he works hard, and I can relate to him even when he messes up. I do too much thinking out loud myself (though not as badly as in his scene with Scott near the end of the episode). He was unfairly conscripted, given virtually no choice (they threatened to take his memories), and now he's stranded a gazillion years from his mother, whom he loves very much and about whom he's worried, with reason. I've seen him called a whiner. I would whine so much worse than he does it's not funny! Eli is my boy.

I like that we're getting a competent woman in Camile Wray. (I don't want shower scenes; that's a waste of a good actress.) I'm glad she was upgraded from occasional to regular character, and I want to see more of her.

I like Greer. Yes, at first I was horrified at what looked like the worst racial stereotypes—until sg_betty reminded me the character had been written as white. He originally had a different name and the nickname "Psycho," but I found the casting call online, and she's right. Jamil Walker Smith has been doing a fantastic job with a part that I think the writers have been falling all over themselves to revise since they did cast an African-American; I think they've split off some of the more psycho aspects into that obviously deeply troubled guy who apparently finished off his meds in "Life" (and shouldn't TJ know about that?). He has amazing intensity and makes me believe that he is that sergeant who can kill the enemy and not lose sleep over it, but he'd risk his life for the people on this ship and might well sit in that chair if he thinks it will get everyone home. I'm a bit worried about where they're going with his father (stereotypes again?), but I want to see more of him (putting him way ahead of Scott, Young, Rush, and now Chloe—shoot, I'm damning with faint praise, aren't I?).

I thought "Time" was a great episode, by far the best of those aired so far (oops, faint praise again). I have said that I'm done with time travel on Stargate shows, but that was an exception. I'll even let them get away with "and it never happened" because they did it so very well. I want more like that! I want new planets with strange creatures (but please, please establish some protocols for dealing with new planets, other than sending through a Kino and saying, "Yeah, looks okay!").

I think the show still has possibilities. I want to see them realized. I'm trying to keep my expectations low, but so far David Blue, Ming-Na, and Jamil Walker Smith are making it worth my while to watch. (Sorry, Robert Carlyle: somehow I have trouble believing in Rush. I'm just not that interested in him.)

Comments

[ariadne83]

[Here via friendshipper]

I can't get my head around "consent after the fact"; if you can, please let me know.

I don't think of it as "consent" after the fact, but rather am attempt by the victim to regain some control. I've seen RL interviews with people who've done that, victims of date rape who went out with the person again and had "consensual" sex with their abuser, and it's heartbreaking. In my opinion, even if Telford does sleep with Emily it'll be because he's deeply fucked up. But I doubt the show will realize that, which is disturbing but not new.

Huh, interesting. I interpreted that row boat scene completely differently. I didn't read it as a symbol of escape, but just as an element of the picture. And she was upset because if she could forget a detail from something she'd seen a thousand times at home, what else from her life will she forget? How long before her connection to her partner starts fading?

I think that last scene was Dr. Park sleeping with Greer.

(And I have to agree - Greer is a much more compelling character than I expected at first. I always look forward to his scenes)

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Dr. Park? I'd like to think it was her—but I thought it was the same bra Chloe wore earlier! Hmm. Maybe I should pull it from TiVo trash and check again. (I thought Park first and then said, "Wait—is that Chloe?" and BH thought it was her all along.)

I did think when Telford went to see Emily the first time as himself that it must be an attempt to regain control, and I suppose sleeping with her would be more of the same. I must agree that the show is unlikely to realize that Telford sleeping with her again is in itself a problem, not a resolution to a problem.

Certainly I can see your perspective on the picture, now that you've mentioned it—but the moment I saw the actual picture hanging on the wall I said, "Escape! She left herself no way to get back from the island!" Perhaps I am being unfair to the writer, reading the scene completely in light of the psych evals and then accusing him of unsubtlety. Especially when I may be the one coming up with the whap-on-the-head reading of it!

[ariadne83]

In that montage Chloe is doing yoga with Eli. And gateworld says Greer is in Park's quarters.

I wish they weren't making Telford into such a cardboard villain. I think we're not supposed to care about his feelings because he's The Bad Guy but my brain doesn't work that way.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I hadn't thought to check Gateworld; thank you! I'd much rather think it was not Chloe. Honestly, all I saw was hair and bra last night, and I couldn't tell from that!

Nobody deserves rape, and I think that's what Young did to Telford, though it has clearly not crossed his mind. I've seen others complain about it too.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

No, it's Park. She was having sex with some other guy in the first scene montage of the show. (I forgot this brand new "crew member's name", but the actor is the one who played Rogelio Duran the guide in "Evolution Parts 1 and 2".) She completely blows him off the next morning in the mess hall.

She tells TJ during the "psych" session that she releases the stress by "reading" a lot. Actually Park is the most interesting character so far.

And then in the last scene, she's now having sex with Greer.

Chloe is doing yoga a lot--alone in the beginning, with Eli at the end. (Maybe she and Park shopped in the same bra store? It got mixed up in Destiny group misty laundry? I dunno.)

And you could've checked SOLUTIONS too. *curses g.d. gw* (oh yeah, but we didn't get our transcript up yet because it took me a few days to get the energy up to write it and I'm not sure our coder has gotten the energy since to audit it)

We got a fair amount of time with Camile, but I didn't feel like it was very interesting, except for the hit-us-over-the-head moment, "I forgot the rowboat!" OMG, people! She forgot to draw the mode of escape from the desert island! Big psych moment here, and TJ isn't even around to witness it! Carl Binder, please look up "subtlety" and memorize the definition. With practice, you may be able to achieve some. I like Camile—so why did I feel like her scenes dragged?

I completely read that scene the same way ariadne83 did and not the way you saw it. That was actually one of my favorite moments in the whole episode--that she was really her connection to home was slipping away. It's a different cliche, but I always find a powerful one.

I love Greer when he's playing against type. I can't stand the stereotype backstory they're giving him. When Rush blew out a bunch of shit, I thought he was just projecting, but now with TJ too...ugh. I love Jamil though and I love how he plays the character.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Good grief! In that first scene I misidentified 'Rivers' as Scott, took the woman with the long hair to be Chloe, and completely missed what was happening in the mess hall. Brilliant Husband did it too, and we didn't even question what we thought we'd seen or discuss it until the end of the episode, so I have to think it was not entirely our fault we could not identify these characters properly in the really quick shots we saw. (Of course, my usual excuse is "I can't tell all these white guys apart," and that seems not to apply here, since I think neither Zak Santiago (Rogelio Duran—no credit yet in IMDb as Rivers) nor Jennifer Spence is 'white'.) Is that viewer fail, director fail, or a combination?

As I said to SG Betty below:
TJ asked her how she dealt with stress, and in that slight pause before she answered, I filled in for her, "I write fanfic." Shen then answered, "I, um, read. . . ." and I added, "Fanfic!" I'd half convinced myself that she was retreating to her quarters to write fanfic in secret! I was thus perhaps less open to seeing what was actually happening because I enjoyed my own joke so much.

Apparently I should not be blaming Carl Binder for my own reading of that desert island scene. (I still like my reading of it as well as yours and Ariadne's, and I don't think they're mutually exclusive.)

Jamil Walker Smith deserves far better writing. Then again, I think at least Carlyle, Ming-Na, and David Blue also do. Not to mention much of the casts of the previous two shows. . . .

I didn't check Gateworld until someone pointed it out to me! I'm not snubbing Solutions! Really!

I find it very reassuring that you're still watching and share at least some of my reactions. I don't think it's a terrible show, though it certainly has terrible moments. I don't think it's a great show. I think it's an unevenly written show with at least half the cast being really worth watching, and I want to see it get better.

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I think some of the blame is the fact the damn ship is so DARK you can't see anyone enough to know who's who and except for the most whiny ones, Chloe, Scott, Rush, and Young, we don't know the others too much aside from interchangeable crew members.

LOL. I like the "fanfic" concept. That is a pretty good joke.

Beaker and Honeydew! Whee!

Stargate has always been more a show of missed potential. I think that's why it's great fanfic fodder. But in this show, it seems like they're trying more...and failing more or something. They explain this time they're focused on the people...but they're not in any interesting way. I will watch character dramas and action based shows, and this one seems to not work as either and it just makes it all the more aggravating. And yes, I agree re: the cast. So many of them are better than this.

Although strangely enough, Life is one of my favorite of the eps, and I'm one of the only ones. I think it's because Ming Na finally got some story time, and I like the actress who plays her partner/spouse.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Yes! BH said to one of the early trailers, "Gee, when I heard they were going to make it 'darker,' I didn't know that meant they couldn't pay the electric bill!" Maybe I could tell the characters apart better if I could see them! I think I confuse Scott with other people more than anyone else, reflecting my complete lack of interest in him despite his (excessive) screen time. Perhaps it's notable that I didn't seriously confuse Chloe with anyone else until I'd had it with her too—getting drunk in someone else's body and then blubbering all over Eli and telling him what a good friend he is when he so obviously is aiming for something a little different than "friend" ticked me off.

I suppose the missed potential is why I'm so heavily involved in Stargate fandom, and into Primeval AUs, when I don't want to read Life on Mars or Psych fic (now there's a show that doesn't aim too high, and I think it ends up about where it aims!).

I wanted to like "Life" because we got so much Camile, but I felt like she didn't get to do a whole lot! I really want her to tell Young and Rush each to get a grip. She's competent, she's not a psychopath—she's already way ahead of some members of this expedition!

I might have liked "Life" but for the Scott scenes and the Young and Telford scenes, but that would be at least half the episode, so what can I do?!

[aurora-novarum.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'm supposed to be rooting for Telford. I think I'm supposed to be rooting for Young, but...Young annoys the crap out of me. They keep making people "complicated" (which means they don't explain motivations except for things related to sex--and even then not much), but they still seem to want to play the archetype of putting people into hero/villain roles. And I think that's not meshing like they want it to.

As an audience member, I don't care enough about any of them.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I did catch that it was Park sleeping with the guy in the beginning, so I got her "reading" comment later. But I totally missed that it wasn't Greer she was sleeping with in the beginning, and I had to point out to my husband that it was her sleeping with Greer at the end.

Brilliant Husband did it too, and we didn't even question what we thought we'd seen or discuss it until the end of the episode, so I have to think it was not entirely our fault we could not identify these characters properly in the really quick shots we saw. (Of course, my usual excuse is "I can't tell all these white guys apart," and that seems not to apply here, since I think neither Zak Santiago (Rogelio Duran—no credit yet in IMDb as Rivers) nor Jennifer Spence is 'white'.)

I blame casting fail. One thing I noticed on the previous Stargates that was getting to be a growing problem towards the end is that all their guest stars looked more or less alike -- medium-sized white guys with short brown hair, medium-sized and pretty white girls with longish dark hair and very similar makeup. Even the ones who aren't technically white still have the same overall look to them. I'm really having trouble with it in SGU. At the very least, they could make some of the hairstyles different, for pete's sake!

I know I keep comparing this show to Lost and I don't even know if you've ever watched Lost, but I just can't help comparing to the way that Lost managed to establish a huge cast (there were at least a dozen named cast members onscreen in the first couple of episodes) by making them all significantly different from each other. There was a tremendous range of races, ages, and body types. Even if you weren't familiar with the actors, it was pretty much impossible to mix up Jorge Garcia with Josh Holloway, for example. All the characters were instantly identifiable even from a distance. With SGU, I'm still confused on all the background scientists, and TJ is the only one of the women I can positively identify at first glance, because of her short blond hair. (I wasn't even positive that the person doing yoga was Chloe, though I guessed it probably was because of Eli joining her at the end.)

(Admittedly, I did have a bit of trouble with Rodney, Carson and Sheppard for the first couple episodes of SGA, but that sorted itself out pretty quickly because their costumes, roles and personalities were so dramatically different.)

[aelfgyfu_mead]

You're absolutely right! I hadn't thought to blame casting (ah, someone else to blame!), but there really is astounding similarity among the cast members. Sometimes I even have trouble telling Young and Scott apart from a distance. I never had this trouble on SG-1 (not even when Ben Browder joined the cast!) or SGA (perhaps while the three you confused do look similar, their voices are quite distinct, and at least two of them were always talking!). TJ was one of the first people I could identify. I needed other people's help to connect Lt. James later in the show with the woman we saw with Scott in that very early scene in the premiere—and, dang it, to realize that was Scott, and not some other white kid. I can tell Eli apart, too, and Rush.

I never got into Lost; I think the biggest reason is that I hate seeing characters killed. I missed the beginning of it, and by the time people were telling me "You have to see this!", I already knew major characters were dying. Maybe someday I'll watch—but I've seen enough ads to know what you mean about different looks, ages, and body types.

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

It was Park. That was showing us that she doesn't relax and deal with stress by reading as she told TJ. ;)

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I'm afraid I may have made myself less able to see that it was Park by not truly considering what Park was doing when she wasn't "reading"! See, TJ asked her how she dealt with stress, and in that slight pause before she answered, I filled in for her, "I write fanfic." Shen then answered, "I, um, read. . . ." and I added, "Fanfic!" I'd half convinced myself that she was retreating to her quarters to write fanfic in secret!

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

Lol! Well, she was retiring to someone's quarters, so you got it half right. ;)

[madaboutdanny.livejournal.com]

I liked Eli at first, now I don't, they made him the clichè geek with a crush on the beauty(?) plus I don't like him spying on the others. The only one that I really like is Rush, with all his faults. I think I'll watch just 'Human' because is a Rush ep and with Daniel and then skip ahead to 'Subversion', with Daniel and Jack.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I still like Eli. I think I'm unusual in not liking Rush; I just can't. I feel like I've seen him range from cranky and slightly insane to cranky, sleep-deprived and experiencing withdrawal from caffeine and nicotine, and completely insane. I'm just not getting into him. Sometimes I can really go for the bad guy (Kerr Avon FTW!), but Rush isn't even a bad guy (that seems to be Telford); he's just an ornery guy.

I wish they wouldn't make Eli so stereotyped, but he's the only person I can care about anymore. I did care about Chloe, but between getting totally trashed in someone else's body and then telling Eli all about what Scott told her, I've lost my sympathy, at least for now. Eli has been rising to the occasion most of the time, which is more than I can say for his shipmates. Rush really signed on for this sort of thing, and all the military did. Chloe and Camile really didn't sign on for it, and Eli was practically drafted. Maybe that's why the three of them had my sympathies from the start (and two of them still do).

[reggietate.livejournal.com]

I'm just not getting into him. Sometimes I can really go for the bad guy (Kerr Avon FTW!)

Must admit, I never saw Avon as the bad guy :-) Bad-ass, maybe. Or possibly bad-boy.

Haven't seen this SGU, but if Robert Carlyle is in it, it might be worth keeping an eye out for. Not that I need another show to follow, it's murder keeping up with the few I have already, like Flashforward.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Avon stole huge amounts of money, and he'd have gotten away with it but for . . . well, don't want to give it away here (never know when the show will find new fans!). I always saw him as the Bad Guy in the universe of Even Worse Guys. Blake was the Good Guy.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

Oh, and I'm not recommending SGU at this point. I am very disappointed to find Carlyle playing such a one-note character, the writing has been very uneven, and I get very frustrated with both the lack of morals (of the characters) and lack of science (writers).

[sg-betty.livejournal.com]

I've actually found him pretty nuanced. I actually agree with him on occasion, and don't want him dead, which I wouldn't have imagined possible after the first three episodes. I find it impossible to get a handle on what kind of person he his, or where his values lie, so that's kind of interesting.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I find it impossible to get a handle on what kind of person he his, or where his values lie, so that's kind of interesting.
I'm the opposite: at first I was willing to put up with the Intergalactic Man of Mystery, but the show seems to keep trying to shove some version of Character Development down our throats without ever illuminating what makes Rush the way he is. I've become too frustrated with him. I wish I could feel as you do!

[ariadne83]

I can't stand to watch Rush. His scenes somehow trigger my embarrassment squick, so I fast forward through them.

[a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com]

*hugs you*

[cleothemuse.livejournal.com]

I stopped watching quite a while ago, but I've been checking out others' posts on the episodes, and it only reaffirms my decision to quit. SGU seems to be set in an alternate reality from SG-1 and SGA... one in which rules and regulations do not exist.

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I'm glad I'm saving you the time of watching the show!

It has not yet become more trouble than it's worth for me; "Time" was such a good episode that I thought it made up for at least two bad ones (for me; your mileage may vary; no express or implied warranties; no deposit, no return). If some of the rumors I've heard are true, that may change. Then again, some of the rumors I had heard seem not to be true, or stories and characters were modified after initial leaks.

I'm certainly not urging you to get back into it, though! If it suddenly turns really good, I'll let you know. (Don't hold your breath.)

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

I think it was Park with Greer.

And until SG:U, weren't the Ancient Stones (which look like Azgard communication stones) only able to establish a mind link between O'Neill and a civilian?

[aelfgyfu_mead]

In the later seasons of SG-1, Daniel and Vala used them to reach another galaxy, and then Vala used them to communicate with ours while in another galaxy. SGA used them even more. They seem to keep changing how they work, too.

Yes, several people have said it was Park with Greer; thanks. I should edit the question above to note that it has been answered.

[flingslass.livejournal.com]

I can't wait until they kill off Lou Diamond Phillips so he can go back and be on more Numb3rs :D I just love Edgerton!

[aelfgyfu_mead]

I'll root for that, and I don't even watch Numb3rs!